Breaking Up With The Old You | S1E6 (E006)

How does our identity keep us from progressing in our health? Today, Evie & Toréa explore this concept of examining our identity. Getting super curious about what we think about ourselves is actually true, and how to create a new identity to support your growth & wellness goals. If you’ve ever told yourself, “I will always be this way…” then this episode is for you!

In This Episode

How beliefs and identity can hold us back (02:44)

Questioning the truth (09:09)

Choosing to think differently (11:22)

Joe Dispensa’s book (15:01)

Defining the new version of you (19:57)

Western medical model of fixed identity (26:06)


Resources Mentioned:

Dr. Joe Dispensa’s book, Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself

Toréa’s Website 

Follow Toréa on Instagram  

Evie’s Website 

Follow Evie on Instagram  

Join the Optimized Wellness Community  

Submit your question for the show!


Transcript

Toréa Rodriguez 0:08
Welcome to the Wildly Optimized Wellness podcast. I am your host, Toréa Rodriguez. And I'm joined by the lovely co host, Evie Takacs. Both of us our Functional Diagnostic Nutrition practitioners and we love working with women from all over the world, through our virtual programs, helping women not only feel better, but actually achieve that vibrant, no holds barred version of themselves they've been missing for a long time, and how we actually get there. Well, that is what this show is all about. Now, please keep in mind that this podcast is created for educational purposes only and should never be used as a replacement for medical diagnosis or treatment. And if you like what you hear today, we would love for you to hit that follow button. Leave a review in Apple podcast, share with your friends, and keep coming back for more. Let's start today's adventure, shall we?

Great Welcome back, everybody. And we're just going to kick today's episode off with Evie, what do you do outside this morning?

Evie Takacs 1:19
Yeah. So outside this morning, I actually sat in journaled, I haven't journaled in a while. And I was really craving it. And it was also pretty warm outside for, you know, early February in the Midwest. And so I was like, You know what, I can sit outside comfortably with my coat and my boots. And I sat on the porch and I just journaled for 5-10 minutes, and it felt really good. And I got the sunrise, I got that light in my eyes. So that's what I did this morning. And I was really happy about that.

Toréa Rodriguez 1:44
Oh, that's super good. So I took my dog for a walk. And we decided to take a completely different route this morning, which was great to kind of break it up a little bit. And I think we were we had just got the period of time where the sun was just cresting the horizon. And so it was nice to just be out and feel the sun on the face. And I think we too, when we're recording, it's February. And out here in California. As you can see, with the sleeveless top, we're having an unseasonable heatwave, hello, climate change. But yeah, so I think, you know, just being outside and taking a different route and changing things up makes it, it makes it more interesting for me. Because I know that if I get into a rut, it's going to do the same thing over and over, and then I get bored, and then I lose that really good habit. So sometimes I have to change it up and change the routes, we got to see a nice sunrise. So yeah.

Evie Takacs 2:41
Yeah, that sounds awesome. I love it.

Toréa Rodriguez 2:44
Cool. So you know, today, we really wanted to talk about a concept that comes up a lot, actually, in the healing process, which is taking a look at the way you think about yourself and how it can be holding you back. And so for the people who are into mindset work and talking about beliefs, and that kind of thing, it really has more to do with this identity that we've created with ourselves that we're familiar with, when we start to say things like, Oh, I'm a person who does X, Y, or Z, I'm a person who gets up and walks in the morning, or I'm a person who, oh, gosh, I just can't do that. Right? Those are the kinds of words that we use in language to pay attention to around identity. And, you know, in order to have a transformation, you have to become somebody knew. But in order to become somebody new, you kind of have to let go of that old self, let go of the old identity. So if you're somebody who told yourself over and over and over, I can't do X, Y, or Z. So for example, I see this a lot in my practice, because I work with women who have autoimmune disease, and they say, Oh, I can't go to this restaurant because I'm following AIP. And I can't have nightshades. Is that a biological restriction that's really happening? Or has that become part of your identity, in who you have become? So I see that can really set people back, Evie, I'm guessing you've seen this same phenomenon, with your clients throughout the years. What do you think?

Evie Takacs 4:23
Yeah, people come in, and they say, Oh, I'm always heavier, or I can never lose weight, or this is just who I am, or I've given the temptations, or I let loose on weekends, or whatever it is. And it's like, they've created this identity or this false identity with themselves of like, This is who I am. There's no changing me, even though they know that they don't like that and they want to change and they're seeking change, they kind of revert back to this is how I've always been or this is just who I am. And that's not always true. Now, yes, there are certain things that we can't change about ourselves. But most of the time, these behaviors, these mindsets can absolutely be changed. And I find that with myself too. I used to be someone who said, This is just the way I am, or my body will just always carry extra weight in this area. Or I'm always going to be someone who can never go to bed on time. Or I'm always someone who stays up late. And then I started asking myself like, is that really true? Am I really this person? Or is it something that I've told myself? Because I've just been doing for so many years, that it's just become second nature for me to be this person who carries extra weight in this part of my body? Or who stays up late? Or who, whatever it is. So I'm like, No, I think it's more of I've just had so much momentum built in that direction, that has made me feel like this is who I am. And maybe I can just change that momentum and change that direction. And not be this person. Because I don't like being this person. I don't like this being part of my identity. So we've talked about this in previous episodes of having that radical honesty with yourself and auditing yourself of like, what role do I have in this? And as this really set in stone? And what are the things that I can be doing to change? And really starting with asking yourself that question of like, Is it really true that this is just who I am?

Toréa Rodriguez 6:04
Absolutely. And, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking about, there's a couple of different phases in the healing process, you know, for a lot of us who get into health or start to have a keen interest in it is because we've had our own health crisis, right, we had a period of time where we were really chronically ill and really sick. And it's during that phase, where we have this, it's almost like a grief period, right? We're letting go of an old identity of a healthy person, and having to grieve that being gone. And we're building this new identity around, I'm the person who can't do things in the same way that I used to, I can't expend my energy in the same way that I used to, because then I'll be fatigued. And I'll have to be on the couch for a couple days to recover. You know, those kinds of things. So there's that phase of letting go of that old identity and becoming the sick person. And I see it a lot with people that I talk to, especially people who have gotten a diagnosis. So then they've gotten this label. So I've even caught myself doing it of oh, I'm somebody who has autoimmune disease. I have Hashi's. Right. It's like, do I have a Hashi's? Am I Hashimoto or am I a person who also has had in the past elevated thyroid antibodies. There's a difference there in the way that we're talking about that kind of identity, especially when we get a disease diagnosis like rheumatoid arthritis or MS or something like that, with it can really play games a little bit with our brain in terms of making us become that person who is cancer, who is multiple sclerosis, whatever it is that we happen to be dealing with. And then there's the other piece, right, so you start working on your health, and you start shifting that. And you get to a place where you're like, Oh, I've got some things dialed in now. But I'm in this like, I kind of imagine it as a box, like the example that I gave earlier with autoimmune, right? A lot of times people will adopt an autoimmune protocol diet or an AIP diet, to be able to get themselves to feeling better. And because they feel better, and they don't want to go back to feeling worse. Now that becomes our identity. And that limits them from being able to complete their healing 100% Go beyond that piece. And so those are the two areas that I see this a lot. And it can be sneaky, because you're like, I feel good. But could you feel better? That's always my question with especially when we are talking about optimizing our wellness, right? I'm always questioning, can I tweak this a little bit more? Can I get a little bit more energy out of my day? Can I get a little bit more recovery out of my body? Like how can I work with my body so that it can be the best that I can ever make it be? So a lot of times this identity piece is the part that comes into play and keeps us in the box?

Evie Takacs 9:09
Yeah. And I do think though, there's an you maybe you felt the same, or maybe you didn't, but when you are on the quest for some sort of diagnosis, because you know something's wrong, you know that you're not feeling the way that you should, or you know, that something's going on. And then you do finally get that diagnosis of a lot of times I see clients come in who they're like, Oh, I was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome, or I have Hashimotos, or I have this. And it is a sense of relief in a way of like, at least there's a label now that we can go a little bit more further down and be more strategic with the treatment and the care. But I then think that people they feel that relief of like, okay, great. I have this diagnosis. Now I know what it is. I'm not crazy. It's not all in my head. But then it's almost like we get married to that diagnosis, and we don't want to let it go. And so then it's like we stay in that bubble of like, well, I have Hashimoto. So That's why I can't lose weight. So well, is that true? Like, I know plenty of people with Hashimotos, who can lose weight, like, you know what I mean, we just kind of get in these stereotypes or these little safe bubbles of, well, I have this diagnosis. So we almost use it as a crutch, I think sometimes to allow that to become our identity. And I think that is what holds us back to is we think, Well, I have this, which means that and that's not always the case.

Toréa Rodriguez 10:26
Correct! Yes. And I think this is just the way human beings are. So we're not faulting anybody for this way of thinking. This is just how, you know, our human brains work. And you said it beautifully. It's almost like, I have X therefore that means this is what my box looks like. And you and I are constantly challenging our clients to say, what would it look like if you broke those walls down of that box and could see outside of that box? And that's what we see with this work around identity. And it ties so beautifully into the conversation we had previously with Megan talking about the secondary gain, because what you're talking about right now is that once you get in that box, right, there's a little bit of comfort there. And that's the secondary gain, right? I'm cool here, this is good. Why would I want to change it? And it really does come down to what is it that you really want?

Evie Takacs 11:22
Right.

Toréa Rodriguez 11:22
And if you can identify what that is that you really want, and hear what your brain says, you know, if I really want to lose weight, and your brain immediately is like, "Oh, well, you've got Hashimotos, and people with thyroid can't lose weight." That is that identity piece that we're talking about? It's like well, hmm, is everybody that way? And we start to get to become curious about whether or not that's really true. I mean, I know that I have countless examples of when I've done this, and stumbled into this issue of like, what is my identity now? And what is the identity of the person that I'm trying to become? And even just recently, I've been playing around with some experiments of tracking, continuous glucose monitoring and tracking what kinds of foods are playing around with my blood sugar just to see kind of where things are, because I'm curious about that. But what was really, really interesting is, before I did it, I heard myself telling myself, I'm not somebody who wants to track her food, because when I do that, I go down this certain path. And I don't want to feel like I'm being restricted on tracking my food. So I don't want to track my food, I'll track my blood sugar, but I want to track my food, right? And I was like, Huh, that's really interesting. Because it would be useful to track the food to understand which foods are causing the spikes. And if I don't do that logging, then I won't be able to get that answer, right, and be able to really take a look at it. So I had to really look at that belief, and challenge myself of like, Could I be one of these people that can track their food and not go down this weird mental pathway and shame and like all that stuff that comes up when we track food? And so I decided that I was just not going to have any judgment about it, and just apply that curiosity to it. And not do it in a restrictive way. So just whatever my food measures out, as is how it measures out, and that's what I'm tracking. I'm not gonna like, oh, maybe I shouldn't put that much sugar in the bowl. Like, maybe I should only do a quarter cup instead of like, whatever. Dump it in the bowl. Just weigh it track it. Go from there.

Evie Takacs 13:40
Yeah, it's just purely data. Yeah. You don't need to attach emotion to it. It's just data. That's how I view it is, this is just data for me. Yeah. I think it's great that you bring this up, though, of like, I think you said it knows very subtle, but you said I, you know, I decided or I chose to not do that. And I think that's it the word choice and choose is very important here is because we all have these different versions or identities within us. Like there's a version of me from 10 years ago that I don't want to be and so every day I wake up and I say which version are you going to be? Are you gonna be the version of me that binge eats that doesn't handle her emotion that doesn't take care of her well, being that lashes out? Everybody thinks everything is a threat? Are you going to be the version of me that is going to be calm, respectful, takes care of herself looks out for her community. I think that's so huge that you said that because we do have the choice. But again, it's it starts with the awareness of having the choice. But then knowing that just because I have been this way in the past doesn't mean that I need to be but being aware that that version still does exist somewhere deep inside and could certainly come out but you get to choose every day if you want to be that version or not. And for you with the food tracking, you chose to be the version of Toréa that is not going to go down the rabbit hole of like mental shame and guilt and all that with your food. And that's that makes a huge difference because now you can get this really cool, awesome data without any emotional attachment to it.

Toréa Rodriguez 15:01
Exactly. And you're pointing out something that's really, really key in the process. And I did want to take this conversation in this direction, because this concept of breaking up with yourself, I think, has been coined by Dr. Joe Dispenza, or doesn't really matter. But it's where I learned this idea of like, if you're going to become somebody new, you have to make room for that new person to come into being, which means the old person that you are, or were needs to not be playing in the present moment. That needs to be somebody who you've said goodbye to, in a way, you're severing that relationship. And part of that process of doing that, number one is deciding, there's always that decision and knowing that you have that choice, and deciding who am I being right now, in this moment, is always a great question to ask ourselves, talk about major self awareness, when you can ask yourself, yeah, but the other piece of it is having some self compassion, and I think that's something that people don't talk about a lot, is that this process of breaking up with our old self, might mean that there's some goodbye, there, some separation there, there might be some grief there. And honoring the fact that we're human and can say goodbye to some of that stuff, means that we are going to have to, or at least I think I'm gonna have to, like feel all the fields around it and allow myself to do that. Because if I don't guess who's gonna show up, when things get tough, that older identity, because that's our safe little box that we like to be in. And so I think there's a double process here that decision making, but also giving yourself that compassion and that love and honor of that part of you, that version of you, and that you're breaking up with, there's always a way to find what the greatness was in that version of you. So that person got you to, from totally being sick to following a puppy and feeling better, and like found a good spot for you. Like, that's awesome. And that may not be serving you anymore. So then it's like breaking up with that person, you might have to say goodbye. And it's good to honor this piece of it. Because I think if we don't we're just like shoving it under the rug in it. It doesn't tend to stick in a way.

Evie Takacs 17:40
Definitely. And I think this applies to, I'm thinking like, if someone's listening to this, it could sound a little overwhelming of like, well, how do I do that, or I have so many things that I want to improve or I have so many identities that I don't like about myself or, and I think maybe you just start with like one or one that seems to flow in more frequently, maybe there's something that you notice, or you think about yourself or you feel about yourself on a day to day basis start with that one, or you start with one that seems you know, there's less of a barrier to get to, I think the one with especially when we have identities around our disease or illness or whatever the diagnosis is that one can be really hard, because again, I think a lot of us do find comfort in having that diagnosis to some degree. And so that might be a little bit harder. But maybe there's something else about, there's a habit that you're like, I'm not a morning person, maybe that's what you start with, because that might be a little bit easier than breaking up with the identity you have around having, you know, chronic disease. So I think starting small and reasonable can be really helpful and effective.

Toréa Rodriguez 18:41
Absolutely. And we have talked about this before in other episodes around taking a much larger concept that could feel overwhelming, and breaking it down into smaller pieces of it. And we're when we're talking about identity work in this way. And we're actually describing and getting pretty detailed on the identity of the person that we want to become, we want to ask ourselves, you know, what are the little details about that person that you can start working on? So you know, if if you are trying to get out of the I am stuck in AIP. And my life will always be this and I'll never be able to go out to eat at friend's house? Or you know, whatever. And you want to be somebody who's got more food freedom in your life? Well, who is she? And how does she start her morning? And how does she do her grocery shopping? And how does she set up social engagements with friends? Or how does she pick restaurants you know, those kinds of things are really good to ask yourself so that you can identify what are those choices that I can make that are micro granular choices, if you will, but the more we do them the closer we are and the next step closer we can be to that new identity.

Evie Takacs 19:57
Yeah, definitely a great point you had when I first met you and you were my coach, you had me do that where I, you asked me like, well, what version of Evie do you want to be? What does she look like? What does that healthier version of Evie look like? What does she do? What's her behavior? How does she dress? What does she eat? Right? How does she talk? And I remember writing in my journal like Evie dresses this way, or Evie eats this, or Evie gets up and does this. And the more I talked about myself in that present tense, the easier it was for me to actually execute. And so it wasn't a fake it till you make it, it wasn't that it was just knowing that this version of me is possible. And she just hadn't come out yet. So the more I talked about her in that way of, Hey, she's already here, this is what you do, it was a lot easier to start showing up as her and then it just becomes second nature.

Toréa Rodriguez 20:44
Yeah, yeah. It's so beautiful when I hear examples like this. And one of the assignments that I give my clients in the very beginning is just what you described, which is, who are you going to be at the end of this experience of our time together? And can you get really, really detailed on who that is going to be so that we can track not tracking in a way of like measurement, but like, make sure that we are doing those things, and including those things in our time together, so that you can get closer and closer to the identity side of it. And it's a process that I learned through my studies of mindset and beliefs. And all of this work, which in the beginning, I was just like, what is all this, like, doesn't Can't I just take a supplement, you know, isn't there just a lab or a supplement that I can do to. And while that stuff is great, you can accelerate the process by also including how we think about ourselves, and how we talk about ourselves, and the choices that we make. And so that's why it's become such an essential piece of my practice and your practice to work with clients of making sure that not only are we doing executing the right strategic pieces of it, getting our movement in getting our hydration and taking the supplements when we're on a protocol. And those are all very strategic things that need to be accomplished. But they need to be supported with the language and the mindset to be able to have it be like a permanent transformation, if you will.

Evie Takacs 22:24
Yeah, absolutely. That's really what's gonna carry you on. Because I think we'd agree that an effective coach is someone who doesn't want to be in your life long term, right? We want you to be able to carry this on your own. And so you have to learn these foundational things and get this mindset work in check, because this is what's going to carry you on when the next hurdle comes because the next hurdle is going to come, right. It's not like you reach this level of health and you coast on by the rest of your life, there's going to be something else that comes up. So do you have those skills. And that's why we both really focus in on that in our coaching with the mindset and really overcoming this identity crisis that some people go through. Were having a hard time letting go of the old identity, because you're going to encounter this again, and we want you to have the tools to be able to do that when we're not here.

Toréa Rodriguez 23:07
Yeah, yeah, it's so important. Because if we don't have those tools in place, I mean, the mindset habits are just as important as brushing your teeth habits. And doing your hydration habits, like all of it is important. Because it is my life's passion to give women the lifelong skills to optimize their health, beyond working in any kind of program, as much as I love, love the clients that I work with. And I love seeing their faces and all that stuff. But there comes a point where the little birds got to get out of the nest. And we want to make sure that our clients are doing that as opposed to just running the protocol after protocol after protocol after protocol. I don't want to get too far down that rabbit hole. But yeah, absolutely. It's one of the reasons why, like right there. In the video, I'm pointing at a journal. So for those of you that are on audio, I'm pointing at something in the video version of this. And I designed a journal, specifically for my clients to use as part of this process. And a lot of this what we're talking about today, this letting go of your identity, right, and being able to let go of certain things so that you can make that space for the new version of you all of that's built in. And so we're constantly building these kinds of tools to be able to teach people how to do this because, man, you hear somebody say, Oh, just break up with your old identity like,

Evie Takacs 24:34
oh, okay, great. Thanks. Thanks for that advice. That was really helpful.

Toréa Rodriguez 24:38
Thanks. How does, how do you do that? Exactly. And sometimes it is journaling. Sometimes it's just taking a walk with yourself and having that like super honest conversation that we've talked about a couple times. And for me, I think it's just really, that question comes up a lot, who am I being in this moment? And that really It helps kind of keep keep me on track, right? It's like, slick the GPS navigation keeps me right back on track.

Evie Takacs 25:07
Definitely. Yeah,

Toréa Rodriguez 25:08
I love it. Anything else on this topic me that we want to get in the recording,

Evie Takacs 25:14
I would just encourage that everyone who's listening and or watching to, you know, be gentle with yourself as you approach this and ask these questions, right? Toréa has really instilled in me like this curiosity, right? How this curiosity of how this applies to you. And again, maybe you take it one identity at a time, because we all have these multiple identities we assigned to ourselves. But again, I think getting curious on how you can do this for yourself is really important, especially if you have been diagnosed with a chronic illness that you find yourself reverting back to as like an excuse, and dare I say a crutch. Because there's a lot of possibilities outside of that diagnosis that most people don't hear when they're first being diagnosed. So make sure you're not being married to that. And you're actually like really thinking like, Okay, I know that these are things that could happen with having x, but does this have to be me, and really exploring that and challenging yourself to not fall into that box and get too comfortable?

Toréa Rodriguez 26:06
You know, it's interesting, that just popped into my brain this thought, which I think we should talk about, which is when you receive a diagnosis, it's very fascinating to me to observe the Western medical model, which is you receive diagnosis, and most people are of the mindset that that is a permanent transition, there's no reversing that. And so they'll talk about the disease as if it's this like thing, because it is a thing, but it doesn't have to be at thing forever. And so it's almost like, the doctor will deliver the diagnosis. And the next thing they talk about is not about how to reverse the process, or try and put some stuff into remission. They talk about how are we going to manage this moving forward so that it doesn't get worse, or so that you don't die early. I mean, that's really their area of expertise. But they're not really talking about it. From an identity standpoint, they're just kind of like, okay, so now you have this. So now your life is gonna be like this. Right. And so oftentimes, they're like delivering that identity to you on a silver platter for you to pick up and take take on moving forward. And the question really is, is that something that you want to do? Or is there a way to look at it differently? Or can you get a second opinion, right? And so it's just fascinating to observe that there's a little bit different psychology going on in the western medicine world than there is in the more natural medicine side of things where we're looking at. Okay, so how did we get here? Let's see if we can identify the root. Let's see if we can take care of that and reverse some of this stuff, or put some of this stuff into remission. And that's a whole different way of looking at it from a psychology standpoint.

Evie Takacs 28:01
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Cuz I've had multiple clients come in, where they're like, oh, I have PCOS. And you know, I have multiple questions after that. But it's like, Well, were you told that this is like a state, this is a syndrome, you don't actually have to always have PCOS? And they're like, No, they just told me that I'd have hard time having kids and that this is just how it's gonna be. And I'm like, Okay, well, let's start with some education about what this is. And, you know, let you know that this is not something that has to be a lifelong thing. And so and that's always a really big relief for people too. Because I think that it's very daunting to be diagnosed with something and feel like, well, this is just how the rest of my life is gonna go. Same thing with autoimmunity, right? You can absolutely be in remission. It's not like you can get rid of Hashimotos. But you can be in remission where you don't have the symptoms, you don't have the flare ups. And I was never taught that 10 years of a diagnosis. And I didn't find out until 10 years later, that I didn't have to feel like I had Hashimotos. And there were times in that 10 years where I was like, Man, I'm feeling better. Like I'm feeling fine. But I didn't realize that that was like, Oh, this is what remission is, and that this is something that's possible. So that's really huge, too, is understanding that you're not gonna always have the worst of that disease or that diagnosis all the time.

Toréa Rodriguez 29:15
Yeah, yeah. It's, it's amazing to me that I mean, we've talked about this behind the scenes, but the number of physicians who will say, okay, you've got Hashimotos, for example, just to pick on thyroid stuff, since we both share that. You've got Hashimotos. And we don't need to run additional labs. We don't need to do all this stuff, because the treatment is the same. It's it literally is the belief that that disease is always going to be there and there is no other option. We've been able to prove it wrong in our own cases, but also in so many women have been able to have Hashimotos or Graves disease, a different disease of the thyroid, autoimmune disease of the fibroid and put into remission. And sure, is that labeled there in the medical records of Hashimotos. Disease. Sure, absolutely. But are the antibodies reduced? Are the symptoms gone? Like, that's really the cool thing about it is that you can choose this identity, right? So anyway, we're probably taking this a little bit further than today's topic, but you get the idea of like, paying attention to the words in the language of not only yourself, but also the people around you, your practitioners and your doctors and that kind of thing. Like it's all kind of tied into this identity piece. And, you know, just questioning, who do you want to be. Pay attention to that because your heart knows who you want to be inside doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be locked into your current circumstances, right? It's important to always remember that our current circumstances don't necessarily have to define who we are becoming or who we will become. So absolutely, we'll leave it there. All right. Thank you, Evie, for talking with me about this topic today. It's, as you know, mindset stuff is one of my favorite things to talk about.

Evie Takacs 31:15
Yeah, definitely. I think this will be very helpful. And we'd love to hear feedback from you have, you know, any questions you have or if you've been doing this work, or if you notice anything about yourself, please let us know, in reach out to us with any additional feedback or questions.

Toréa Rodriguez 31:28
Great and all that stuff will be in the show notes so you can find out how to do that there. And we'll see you guys next time.

Hey, thanks for joining us for this episode of the Wildly Optimized Wellness podcast. If you're ready to dig deeper into your health, stop playing the whack-a-symptom game, start testing to get better guidance, you can find more about Toréa at torearodriguez.com, and you can find Evie at holisticallyrestored.com. Want a peek into what it's like to work with us? Come join us at our Optimized Wellness Community. You can find the invitation link in the show notes below. And if you have a question for the show, you can submit your question under the podcast section of torearodriguez.com. Finally, if you found something helpful in this episode, don't forget to leave a review, hit that follow button or share it with a friend. They're gonna love that you thought of them. Until next time, see you outside!

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Secondary Gain: Why We Stay Stuck S1E5 (E005)