Microdosing with Mycology Psychology: Deep Dive Part 1 | E041
Should you be Micro- or Macrodosing?
And what’s the difference between the two?
Are there any benefits?
Today, we’re so pleased to be joined by two experts from Mycology Psychology, Dr. Victoria Sterkin & Rome Shadanloo, who are here to answer these questions and more! If you’re curious about psilocybin treatments, if you want to know more about how medicinal mushrooms can help you, or if you just want to know what the latest research is saying about mycology, this episode is for you! There’s so much to explore in the world of fungi, so let’s get started!
And if you enjoy this, be sure to tune in to Part 2 with Dr. Victoria Sterkin & Rome Shadanloo - only available on the Wildly Optimized Wellness Premium podcast, which is one of the many benefits you receive when you become an Optimized Wellness Community member!
In This Episode
Victoria & Rome’s background with Mycology Psychology (1:37)
The difference between functional & medicinal mushrooms (6:52)
Connection between psychedelic mushrooms & autoimmune disorders (7:35)
Where scientific studies fall short (12:07)
How mushrooms allow for a necessary pause & why we hide behind illness (14:18)
How mushrooms deepen our connection to the natural world (18:13)
What is microdosing v. macrodosing? (24:09)
The research on psilocybin: What about Default Mode Network? (30:36)
Changes they’ve seen in patients with OCD, deep grief, & substance abuse (34:52)
Resources Mentioned
Learn more about Mycology Psychology & connect with their practitioners
Catch up on S4E2 Harness the Power of Mycology
Catch up on S1E5 Secondary Gain
Michael Pollan's book
Robin Carhart Harris’ research
Join the Optimized Wellness Community
Submit your question for the show!
Transcript
Toréa Rodriguez 0:08
Welcome to the Wildly Optimized Wellness podcast. I am your host, Toréa Rodriguez. And I’m joined by the lovely co host, Evie Takacs. Both of us are Functional Diagnostic Nutrition practitioners and we love working with women from all over the world, through our virtual programs, helping women not only feel better, but actually achieve that vibrant, no holds barred version of themselves, they’ve been missing for a long time, and how we actually get there. Well, that is what this show is all about. Now, please keep in mind that this podcast is created for educational purposes only and should never be used as a replacement for medical diagnosis or treatment. And if you like what you hear today, we would love for you to hit that follow button, leave a review in Apple podcast, share with your friends, and keep coming back for more. Let’s start today’s adventure shall we?
Okay, welcome back to the Wildly Optimized Wellness Podcast. Evie and I are so pleased as punch to be able to have two lovely guests on our podcast today from a company called Mycology Psychology, and if some of you have been following on Social Media, you may already know that this is a company that I have partnered with to start providing some integration support with mushrooms of various different types. And so we wanted to invite Rome Shadanloo and Victoria Sterkin, who are the cofounders of a company called Mycology Psychology to have a conversation with us. And let's just dive in. So ladies, welcome. Thank you for joining us on the podcast. I guess we'll just start off with how did you come across mushrooms? And how did you become called to create an entire company around it? Maybe give us a brief version? Because I'm sure there's quite a history there. But we would love to just know like how did this come to be.
Rome Shadanloo 2:10
Sure! Very brief version, funnily enough for me, it started with Ayahuasca and Ayahuasca led me to the mushrooms, the Ayahuasca said, I'm not for you to serve. But the mushrooms want to have a word with you. And I started diving into my healing with mushrooms. I became a facilitator, I went back to school to study Holistic Psychology, I also thank 5-MeO for that decision. And ultimately, when I was there, I just started, you know, growing mushrooms in my room and taking them and, you know, Microdosing while I was studying and Mycology Psychology actually started as an Instagram page for, you know, just an educational resource. And that's, you know, I thought maybe I can funnel in clients through this educational resource page. People came in and helped expand the company. You know, one of them did not remain with us, but one of them. That was the did was Victoria, Dr. Victoria. And so we built this and continue to build this together. And I just, you know, just side note, couldn't ask for a better person to be on this mission with.
Dr. Victoria Sterkin 3:15
Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, the former partner that Rome's referring to, he called me up in the middle of action towards the beginning of COVID. And he was like, Doc, we need you, we need you. And I was like, I am swamped. No time. And he was like, No, you really need to explore this, like, please take this seriously. And I just kept having dreams about the mushrooms and in the form of the ocean, the ocean was coming in waves and saying you got to dive in, you got to dive in. And then I was on the table getting bodywork and it was my whole body kept saying you'd have to actually investigate this. And I called Rome as a client, because I wanted to know from the participants perspective, what it would feel like to embark on a journey that is a three month journey on a microdosing protocol, and instantly, instantly, my whole sense of being became so aware of the power in the neuroplasticity that comes from working at this capacity where you're in your life on a daily basis, really priming your nervous system for change and flexibility, and curiosity and awe and wonder. And I was like this is way too powerful for me to ignore. As a practitioner, I saw how important it is to help people access an organic technology that can allow us to heal ourselves in a time where we're in a mental health crisis. And there isn't enough man power woman power out there to really do the one on one work that is needed. And it just felt like a giant YES and we started creating systems and
Rome Shadanloo 5:02
We knew we were getting into we knew we were getting into.
Toréa Rodriguez 5:09
Well, it's a very similar story. And thank you so much, both of you for sharing kind of like what attracted you, you know, I, I got curious around the nervous system and the nervous system's role in health and wellness and biology. And for the last several years, that's really where I've been delving into my practice. And that's something that Evie and I work on a lot with our clients is really helping them have nervous system flexibility, and really start thinking about new neural pathways and new habits and behaviors and identity and thoughts and all of that stuff that kind of goes along with it. And for me, this was like you Victoria curiosity. And I had reached out to you as a client to be able to experience something like that for myself, and had such a wonderful experience that I knew that this was something that to be able to layer this on to those experiences that me and I curate, whether it's through our in person retreats, or through our online group programs, to be able to layer this experience on top of those things is quite powerful. And that's something that I think all of us are kind of embarking on and and looking forward to helping expand that into the rest of the planet and help people around because like you said, Victoria, there's such a mental health and quite honestly, chronic biological health crisis that we have, right. And Evie and I work mostly on the biology side, and you guys work mostly on the psychology side, but those are in our mix. And so it's really, really powerful, because we've had an episode already on functional mushrooms and what that is all about. And if anybody missed it, we will make sure that you can click on the video or get the resource on the show notes below. But what's the difference between functional mushrooms and medicinal mushrooms? Because we're talking primarily medicinal mushrooms today?
Rome Shadanloo 7:01
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, on some level all, you know, not all mushrooms in the world. But yeah, the functional mushrooms and the entheogenic mushrooms are all medicinal in different ways. Because like you said biology and psychology, they really overlap. So if your body's feeling better, and if you feel more optimized energy, you're gonna feel stronger and you're gonna feel stronger mentally. But as far as the antigenic mushrooms, you know, what I have found is for autoimmune and we're gonna I'm sure we're gonna get into the mold discussion at some point.
Toréa Rodriguez 7:33
Yes, yes, ma'am. But say more, because there's a lot of autoimmune listeners on this podcast to see our about that.
Rome Shadanloo 7:40
For the majority of I would say almost all of the autoimmune disorders, psychedelic mushrooms have been an invaluable ally, and helping you get in the right healing mindset because you cannot heal if you don't feel safe. You cannot heal if you are pushing down uncomfortable emotions and not processing them. They're getting stored in your body. So you're getting backlogged and it's more for your body to handle Yes, and your body works on triage. It's like I'm going to deal with whatever is the emergency first. But I think that there's just this like kind of backlog that starts happening. When you're crying, you're releasing stress hormones, a lot of people have really cathartic experiences on mushrooms, their view of the world changes into like a more benevolent universe. And your cells are hearing that your cells are remembering that you're connecting with other people, you're connecting with your heart connection, floods your body with better hormones, with with with healing energy. And I think a lot of illness does come from our environment, with you know, what they're putting in our food, our water. I mean, I can't believe sure that people are not rioting in the streets over this. We're being poisoned by the masses, but psychologically as well with a lot of stuff on the internet, a lot of stuff in the culture. And I think the mushrooms may not stop the poison from being in the food necessarily, but it can give you an awareness around what you're putting in your body. An example is I was on a mushroom trip, I had one of those, you know, sugar free ice creams that I used to eat and it has tasted like pure chemical. And the mushrooms were like, eating this fascinating baked sugar. It's you're eating chemicals, and I was like, Okay, now I have to like really clean up my diet. Or, you know, being more in touch with my environment. The mushrooms were like stop using bottled water. So I started drinking out of glass jars, which in turn ended up being better for my health. Right? I'm kinder to myself, I'm kinder to my inner child. You know being fractured is bad for your health. When you get whole again, your system start working together as teammates rather than, you know, as adversaries. So I don't know if I explained that well. But, you know, it's only a fraction of what can happen with this medicine.
Dr. Victoria Sterkin 10:03
And if I could add that, you know, when we're talking about the specifics of an entheogenic mushroom amount of the strain, I found that they are extraordinary communicators. And they are extraordinary connectors. You know, we're playing last night with the term interdimensional fascia, where they really do blend, merge connect different parts of the cells, from the small self eye to the greater self, the environment that we're connected to. And all sickness, all sickness is some thing in your body, in your nervous system in your environment, creating a sense of fragmentation, all sickness leads to, or is caused by fragmentation. And if we have these very safe beings, sentient beings, as Rome, so beautifully put, that really are pretty easy on the liver, and pretty easy on the kidneys. And pretty easy on the heart, when we're talking about our response to most medicines that we have out there. You know, it's very safe, why would we not utilize something that is there to inherently help us be more integrated?
Rome Shadanloo 11:20
Yeah. And I want to piggyback on that really quick Toréa, if that's okay?
Toréa Rodriguez 11:23
Please.
Rome Shadanloo 11:23
A study comes to mind where they said that micro dosing long term without any breaks can can be hard on the heart. Right. And so that's why we utilize breaks when when we're micro dosing along with, you know, resetting and integrating what you've learned your last protocol. But I also would argue with there's some people where, you know, they're nervous about that. And I say, you know what's really stressful for the heart? Stress.
Toréa Rodriguez 11:52
Right?
Rome Shadanloo 11:52
That is really stressful for the heart.
Toréa Rodriguez 11:54
Yeah,
Rome Shadanloo 11:54
Like I wouldn't put, you know, I respect the study. And I understand the study. But I think it's not taking in the full scope of, you know, how much ease is good for your health?
Toréa Rodriguez 12:05
Yes, yes and Evie and I talked about taking in the full scope a lot in the, in the terms we use are getting that 30,000 foot view, like, if we myopically are looking at certain types of symptoms or aspects of wellness, we miss the rest of it. And unfortunately, the way that a scientific study is designed, we want to minimize as many variables as possible. So we literally are cutting off a lot of what we're looking at. And so then the conclusions that are drawn can be not necessarily the whole picture of the truth, which is I think, why it's hard to go based off of scientific studies alone, we have to also expand our view into other aspects. Absolutely. I also wanted to circle back just real quickly on something that you said earlier on Rome, which was the auto immune, right. And we know that now that most people who have autoimmune or chronic illness type conditions, also have high A scores or high adverse childhood experience scores. And using a plant medicine in this way, to help us heal some of those traumas is huge, right? And so this is, this is one of those aspects where these kinds of plant compounds can help us do that. Would you agree?
Rome Shadanloo 13:28
Yes, absolutely. And I and I want to respectfully, you know, be respectful to the medicine and not be like kind of Timothy Leary who did great things and put acid and everybody's water and saying everybody should take this. It's not for every single person on the planet. But having said that, you guys, we found it, we found a really valuable tool. Yeah, we found a really valuable tool. Because when you have high aces, and you're going into therapy, as an adult, you're gonna go into therapy guarded, or sometimes, but you can absolutely message Yeah. So dysregulated you can't even take in the healing. This is the bridge. Yeah, yeah, this is the bridge between you and the healing because your protectors are going to put down their shields. And those protectors putting on their shields not only have positive psychological benefits, but positive physical benefits, too, because we armor physically to in our body. Yeah,
Dr. Victoria Sterkin 14:17
we do. And, you know, when we're talking about autoimmune, we're talking about the body's difficulty in a sense of discernment. Right? What parts of ourselves are attacking ourselves versus, you know, attacking what needs to be attacked? Right? Yes. And when we think about a home, you know, the body is a home our childhood homes when we think about some of the adverse childhood environments that create a body environment that now is riddled in some kind of autoimmune dysfunction. You're really talking about an issue and discernment. And if we could figure out how do I ground myself in presence so that I could recognize this is safe, but this is not. This is healthy. But this is not. This is my childhood, this is the present, this is a trigger. This is how I can respond to it now, right, and what the mushrooms really offer us is a capacity to pause, assess, and have time to discern so that we're not just reacting constantly, where there's no pause to make choice. So it's a very empowered and empowering medicine to work with. And I think it is important to bring that into people who are struggling with any kind of autoimmune disorder.
Toréa Rodriguez 15:38
Yeah, yeah, wonderful.
Rome Shadanloo 15:39
Another thing, sometimes when you are in a very unsafe environment, as a child, I'll just speak for myself, I found out that faking illness got me out of getting hit, getting in trouble, you know, what would happen, like, suddenly, there would be food in front of me and I'd be getting taken care of, I had secret wishes of being put in the hospital. Because then I would get the love care and attention that I was so desperately craving and the break that I needed from my childhood. And these things become wishes, subconscious wishes, like Oh, illness can protect me, illness can protect me, and then I got ill. And then I got ill, and I got to start hiding behind the illness. And that is the most insidious part is that like there, you form a part of yourself that actually doesn't want to get better. And it's really hard for a lot of people to admit. It's like I've found safety in this place. And if I get better, people are going to expect things from me. And if I get better, I'm going to show up places and I don't have the illness excuse and then I'm going to have to shine and then I'm going to have to be 100% me. Yeah, that is something that I don't think that I would have ever realized or have been able to truly contend with without the help of our fungi friends.
Toréa Rodriguez 16:50
That's amazing. And, you know, Evie and I have talked about secondary gain, we have a whole episode dedicated to secondary gain. And yeah, and the courage that it takes to be honest with yourself about that secondary gain. But it's not uncommon. That's the thing, right? It's like, so many of us have found those benefits in being ill, or not feeling well. And suddenly getting the attention that we so desperately were desiring in the first place. Right?
Dr. Victoria Sterkin 17:22
Works that way, too. Yes, you know, we can get really stuck in our grief, because it's a place where we're receiving, where we don't have to leave the house and participate in the world, right? There's a lot of similarities and grief work. And it takes a lot of courage to say, Oh, I'm finding some comfort in my grief. And then there's a real inability to move forward with that. And again, I think there's a lot of rhetoric around mushrooms and grief, not really going well together, because of the intensity that it could bring up in people. But, you know, with the right kinds of supports actually could really help create a ton of movement. And in that sense of curiosity, and awe comes from experiencing nature that you guys really talk about in Wildly Optimized Wellness, right, getting in touch, right and connecting to our environments again.
Toréa Rodriguez 18:14
Yes and so speaking of which, that's a great segue into one of my other questions, which is, you know, how do the use of mushrooms both from a strict functional standpoint and the psychedelic standpoint, How do they deepen our connection to nature and to the natural world? I know, I experienced that personally, with my macrodosing. But I'd love to hear a little bit more about that from you guys.
Rome Shadanloo 18:38
I mean, I don't have any, like, scientific explanation for why it does that. But I think they are kind of these like messengers of the earth. There's a whole mycelial network underground. They're the digestive systems of the earth. They're the communicators of the earth. And so when you take it into your nervous system, you start co-piloting and collaborating with this medicine to realize that you too, are part of the earth and of the earth and from the earth and will go back to the earth. Yeah, but like you I think, for me, the most proof was in an experience I had where, you know, I went outside, and there was a tangerine tree. And I was just blown away. I'm like these tangerines are free? Like I just couldn't, they're just here, like the earth just give. Like we're the ones that take it in charge people but the earth just gives. Yes. And I just started weeping at this tree and like pure gratitude, and humility of like, What an asshole I've been to the earth in the past, smoking cigarettes and to my own body. And by the way, we pollute the Earth. We pollute our body. That's what we're doing.
Toréa Rodriguez 19:47
Yeah of course, yep.
Rome Shadanloo 19:48
Oh, and that was the moment of stop drinking out of plastic bottles. Stop hurting me.
Toréa Rodriguez 19:52
Yeah.
Rome Shadanloo 19:53
Like I'm so sorry. I will do it and it's stuck for about a year and a half. Like sometimes convenience wins but, You know,
Toréa Rodriguez 20:01
Sure.
Rome Shadanloo 20:01
Yeah, we're human. But, you know, if I was like in the message of don't pollute the earth, I ended up not polluting my body through the microplastics that I drink in the water.
Toréa Rodriguez 20:11
Yeah
Rome Shadanloo 20:12
We are one.
Dr. Victoria Sterkin 20:13
Yeah
Toréa Rodriguez 20:14
It's pretty amazing. Because I've seen a lot of people describe how they suddenly have a respect for nature, when they're using plant medicines of this type and recognize how collected we are. And from somebody who's studied ecological systems for a very long time. I kind of know that, but not everybody does. And so I think it's, it's a really unique aspect of being able to have that kind of awareness for the first time, or maybe a reinforcement of an awareness that we've forgotten.
Dr. Victoria Sterkin 20:46
Yeah. I think that when you ingest something that you get to experience, how much power it holds. And it's something that does just grow from Earth. You know, there's a new sense of respect that we can get for what Earth provides, in terms of its power and its mystery. I think that also because they are such deep communicators, and they open up our access to new parts of our nervous system, new parts of ourselves that were there, but we couldn't access them before. That access brings in more access to the subtle, right. And so we are able to hear, feel, and experience new types of communication. Some of those are directly language from the earth, right? I hear over and over again, people talking about even in microdosing experiences. I'm holding an awareness of my surroundings like I never have before I feel held by the mountain I live on. I feel supported by the blades of grass. I walked by, I could feel them. And it's very subtle, but I could feel them. And that will open up more curiosity to dive further into, well, what is my relationship to my environment?
Toréa Rodriguez 22:04
Yeah, yeah, that's beautifully said. And you know, Evie and we've talked a lot about just the experience of grounding, right? I used to think that it was such hogwash. Which is crazy, because I grew up on a ranch in the middle of nowhere, and like I should have, I should have known this, but whatever. It's fine. Yeah. So we'll just delete that right now. But you know, it's like this, this concept of, if you take your bare feet, and put them in the grass and touch the earth, you will feel a physical change. And Evie, I remember you telling me the first time you had coffee with your feet on the grass or your morning beverage with the feet on the grass, you want to recall that?
Evie Takacs 22:42
Yeah. For me, like, again, I kind of like I don't know, sort of grounding, whatever, like we'll see. And it was about the presence of it was the mindfulness of doing it. It was, I mean, how many times is like little when I run through the, you know, barefoot? Or how many times have I gone to the beach, and I think nothing of it. But when I was actually thinking about what I'm doing, I did, I felt almost this kind of like what you were saying, when people are on microdosing, like, the comfort of wow, like I feel really connected, or I feel like I, I am welcome here. And that was something really powerful for me of like, there's so much comfort around me that I just don't even pay attention to all the time, because I'm just always going from one place to the next. And if I just stop and really feel where my feet are, and I'm where my feet are, that's exactly where I need to be. And that's exactly where my mind needs to be to. So it was a really nice experience to do that. And it just gives me that the word that keeps coming to mind discomfort of this is where I'm supposed to be right now. And this is the only place that I can be because my mind is racing and all these places that I need to go or where I should be, you know, that sort of thing. Being barefoot on the ground, whether it's the beach, which is my preferred thing, I'm a beach girl, I love the water, the waves, it's all very calming to me. Or if it's in the grass here, my Midwest home, like, like, this is where I need to be. And so it gives me that comfort of I'm exactly where I need. I feel welcome. Yeah, that hit us both.
Toréa Rodriguez 24:05
Yeah. It's very cool. We've used the term, several times microdosing. And let's talk a little bit what is the difference? Really, for people who don't know? Or are just this is the first time they're hearing about any of this? What is micro dosing versus a macro dose or a trip or a journey or whatever else? There's more terms, I'm sure but what is the difference between the two so that they kind of know what we're talking about?
Rome Shadanloo 24:35
Well, I wouldn't recommend going to work or driving a car on a macro dose, you know, we can start there for sure.
Toréa Rodriguez 24:41
Do not operate heavy machinery.
Rome Shadanloo 24:44
Do not operate heavy machinery or any really. Yeah. Because you're impaired. You know, in some ways, you're less impaired. You're like, Oh, I'm seeing the truth, but you're physically impaired. And you know, your boundaries are much looser, and there's really a need for a safe container around you to go have this experience this journey, this trip, whatever you want to call it. And then the next day, you're like, Oh, that was crazy. And then you start kind of making sense of it over the weeks and, and the next few months and sometimes for a full year. But with microdosing, you're going to be able to go to work better, most of the time, you're going to be able to drive your car better, probably all of the time, because it does sharpen your senses and makes you more focused. And I want to put a disclaimer that micro dosing is different for everybody. There's some people that are like, I just needed to cry all week, and I just felt profound, beautiful, yes, yeah. But there's a lot of people that experience that, like, I'm better at my job. I'm better with people. Like I went to court, and it went really well. Everybody wanted to help me, you know, suddenly the world is opening up to you. And everyone's being really kind to you, because you're different. You're the common denominator, we live in a Mirror Universe, you know, and for those people who go into like deep grief on microdose, you know, I had a client that has been really suicidal. And then on his first day microdosing, he's like, I feel really extreme rage. It's like scary to me. And I'm like, Well, I think this is why you've been suicidal. You've been pushing this rage down and not feeling it and now you're feeling it, but you're feeling it without looping. And then that's when we'll get into the default mode network.
Toréa Rodriguez 26:18
Yeah,
Dr. Victoria Sterkin 26:18
Yeah, well, and that's really the difference between western medicine, a lot of western psychopharmacology and using plant medicine in this way, you know, it will bring up feelings with other parts of the brain that allow us to observe those feelings and investigate those feelings, instead of just getting overwhelmed by the emotion. Whereas in western pharmacology, there's more of typically numbing of certain sensations numbing of the overwhelm, right? But if we're talking about the difference between micro and macro, you know, Roman, I'm glad you didn't talk the mounts, which sometimes we do this amount is more of a micro dose versus is different. So different for everybody. Yeah, you know, we've had people in a microdose saying, I felt like I was journeying a little bit, you know, we're we're all so different. And it's important that we really individualized protocols to feel into the nervous systems that we're working with. But a story comes to mind when we were in one of our mycology gatherings mycology gathering our monthly integration circle, and there was a man on circle who was, I think, in his first couple of weeks on this protocol. And he was like, I gotta ask this question. Does anyone else feel this? And he's never done any plant medicine before. He was like, it's the weirdest thing I kept, I'm driving. And it's like, I can sense a car's gonna come from around the bend. I can sense it, and then it does. And then it happens. It's really happening. What is that? You know, and it was so cool, because he wasn't saying, I feel fucked up while I'm driving. Right? And I'm scared, right? I'm not I'm out of control. He's like I am. So in tune with what I'm doing, that I'm picking up more information than I was gathering before, where maybe I was too in my head and not able to open myself up to some of the information that's actually always there.
Toréa Rodriguez 28:12
Yeah, yeah. I mean, a lot of people think about macrodosing, or at least the people that I've talked to think about macrodosing as, like, a very intense, you know, seven, eight hour experience that might have hallucinations. And, you know, like you said, Rome, impaired like yeah, you're impaired, you're under the influence of something, right. So that's a whole experience in itself, and can be very intense for some people. And like you said, Victoria, sometimes that can take or maybe it was Rome, I can't remember, it can take a long time to unpack that to really understand what the learnings are, where's the microdose is because it's a smaller amount less intense. And it's for a longer period of time. I know it Mycology Psychology, we recommend about 90 days and a pulsing fashion, that that allows you to have these insights about yourself and these learnings over time. And it's a little bit easier, in my opinion. I don't know I've never done a macrodose experience. So I don't know. But I would assume that it's a little bit easier to do the integration work in that way.
Dr. Victoria Sterkin 29:16
It's the integration as you're in you get the integrations every day.
Rome Shadanloo 29:19
Every day, you're it's in real time you're integrating all day, every day with your brain long term brain plasticity over the course of three months. It's neurodegenerative, it's a you're, you're growing new parts, you're regrowing parts, you're creating new neural pathways. And so every day is an opportunity. Am I going to make a good impression on my brain or a bad impression on the brain and the mushrooms will tend to steer you towards what's healthier for you. If you're living in authentically the mushrooms will let you know and then if you don't want to listen to them, they're gonna challenge you're gonna have a hard time because it's like, Oh, I know the truth and I know better but I'm living like this anyway is a really tough place to be anxiety inducing. Yeah, very anxiety inducing in their life and microdose is making me anxious. I'm like, No, you're in an abusive relationship. And they're telling you to get out and you don't want to, right? That's just an example. But it's like, it's a semester versus like, a crash course, is like a full semester of learning. And you come out and that semester a little bit different, with a new brain with more information with new information. And having also unlearned some things, so it's evolutionary to me that it's all evolutionary, but this feels like you're evolving over the course of three months. Right?
Toréa Rodriguez 30:31
Interesting. I like that description. Thank you. Beautiful. Thank you so much. I would love to kind of shift a little bit and talk about the changes that have been happening in the research with Psilocybin specifically, you know, we we've been seeing and observing that more scientists are getting the clearance to be able to use these substances, because let's face it, psychedelic mushrooms are still categorized as a class one, right substance are crazy. That was called schedule one schedule, and you schedule one, thank you schedule one substance. And we can go into all the history in that. But I would just recommend people read Michael Pollan's book, because he goes into the history on that to understand what that is all about. But the research that is happening with psilocybin, can you touch on A, what are the findings that they've found so far that you're aware of, of the stuff that you've been keeping up on? And B, Are you seeing the same thing with your clients? Like is that mirroring what you're experiencing in the clients?
Dr. Victoria Sterkin 31:33
I'd love to first give a shout out and thank you to Robin Carhartt Harris, for the research that he's done with the default mode network, because that was really groundbreaking.
Toréa Rodriguez 31:45
And what is the default mode network for people who don't know this.
Dr. Victoria Sterkin 31:48
So the default mode network is the interconnection very hard wiring of mainly two parts of the brain, the medial prefrontal cortex, and the parietal cingulate. And these two parts of the brain have to do with one the medial prefrontal our sense of self, who I am, how I identify how I view myself, and the parietal cingulate, which is really all about what we're experiencing. And so if those two parts are hardwired, then every experience is a direct correlation with who I am, right? So if I, you know, I make a mistake in an interview, and I say, Oh, my God, moron, I can't believe I did that that one little moment defines me, right, because there's such deep wiring there. And what they found is, when they introduced psilocybin to the brain, the primal cingulate unhooks, from the medial prefrontal cortex, and in that unhooking, there's not like a lost sense of selves. It's, oh, now this kreidel cingulate gets to talk to all of these other parts of the brain that it didn't have access to before. And therefore, what we experienced starts taking on all these other meanings. And there's so much more room to feel into what does it mean to be who I am, right? And what we see and hear most often. And I've said this before, because it's something that is so poignant, and it happens over and over again, talking to people, I feel more of myself, I feel more of myself, what is that? What does that even mean? I feel more of myself? Well, that is why you literally are accessing more yourself. And when we recognize and talking about what Rome was just saying, with some of the anxiety inducing pieces that may come from a microdosing experience, when we realize that, oh, here's this authentic version of me, and my life doesn't reflect that, that can be really jarring for people. And what we love to do as part of the integration is, what are all the baby steps we can take so we can align with ourselves with more accuracy with more flexibility with more compassion, right? How do we find more alignment with this more true whole sense of who you are. And when we do that, we see that massive changes start unfolding in those tiny little baby steps. It can even be just the way you respond to your partner, just the voice that I use, the tone of voice that I use, maybe my words stay the same, but my tone changes. And now I'm being more authentic to who I am. And now my partner's reflecting that back to me, and then that ripples out. So you know, there's huge opportunity for growth and change and the beauty of that research but the default mode network for me as a clinician, helped me to really understand what I was experiencing and seeing in my mind my clients.
Toréa Rodriguez 34:53
Yeah, and I mean, there's a lot of headlines right now about research involving treatment resistant depression and PTSD, and now even though we're some research, eating disorders, I was just gonna say that eating disorders, you know, and I'm just curious with all the clients that you guys work with in Mycology Psychology and I know it's not just two of you, you've got a whole group of practitioners but beautiful team.
Rome Shadanloo 35:18
So lucky.
Toréa Rodriguez 35:18
I know that you guys are seeing some of the same things that are being reflected in the scientific research.
Rome Shadanloo 35:25
Yeah.
Toréa Rodriguez 35:25
Can you speak a little bit to that?
Rome Shadanloo 35:27
Yeah, I just, I want to start off by saying that when I was in school, studying Holistic Psychology, I was really diving into the research back then. This was pre pandemic. And at the time, the big buzz was the Johns Hopkins research around terminal cancer patients. And the success that they had serving them Psilocybin along with therapy, and I became very well, I'm a certified death doula, I've been kind of really fascinated with death and dying since I was a child. So this research really, really jumped out at me. And, you know, for me, it was like, Oh, it was the medicine. But it was also like the opening up to the connection through the therapy they had, and just realizing the oneness, taking the fear out of dying. Beautiful. So after that, I started, you know, doing almost like kind of research journeys for myself, where I would sit with medicine by myself pretty regularly to learn the medicine. And what I realized is the studies are very valuable for getting the medicine out to the masses. Right. But I, for me, you're preaching to the converted already, because I experienced something that personally, I'm at a point where I don't need research to tell me anything anymore, other than to be able to disseminate information responsibly to other people. So, you know, I noticed when Mycology Psychology really started taking off, I started looking into the research even less, because I felt like on some level, we were doing our own research. Well, it wasn't on we are, we are!
Dr. Victoria Sterkin 36:59
We are, yes!
Rome Shadanloo 37:02
We're working with a very large population and getting constant feedback. And not only like, you know, feedback, you write down on a piece of paper book feedback, you can feel in your heart that bring tears to your eyes. I think for me, that's all I need. And then I pass the baton to the researchers, you guys were better at that part than me, please put this information together in a palatable way for public consumption, so that we can educate ourselves because like Victoria said, we are in a mental health crisis. But like we were saying, before we started recording, you know, I want to say I think good luck, quantifying the mushrooms, they are sentient. When you observe them, they will act different. And it's not just psilocybin, psilocybin growing out of the ground is nothing but psilocybin, it's when it meets your nervous system that the magic happens. So it's a lock and key situation. And every lock is different. And so every turn of the key is different.
Toréa Rodriguez 38:00
Yeah. Fabulous.
Dr. Victoria Sterkin 38:01
I remember, there was a moment in my career, where I was a researcher and doing a lot of data driven educational research, behavioral research. And I remember connecting with my first grade teacher, and talking about the data, right? This is what I'm finding, and this is so exciting. And she was like, Do you really need that to know? Do you really need that to know you're working with these people, you're directly engaging with your participants? Do you really need the data to know? And at that time, a part of me did, to be completely honest, a part of me did and then there was this other part of me that was like, so I remember this moment, right? There was this other part of me was like, oh, yeah, I feel it.
I feel it. I get to feel this. I feel learning I feel the growth, I feel the changes that are happening. You know, when I started working with a client of ours, who had treatment resistant OCD, I had never worked with a client with her level of OCD before using psilocybin. This was a new experience for me. And I had to be honest with her around, I don't know, I don't know how this is going to play out. Let's see. But I had trust. I had trust in the process. I trust in the medicine. She had trusts in us in herself. And that was enough and massive changes have occurred. We've seen people with substance use disorders, massive changes that have occurred, people who are in deep grief, people who are suffering from treatment resistant, depression, anxiety, nice changes that have occurred, because they're learning to trust themselves. Yeah, not the data that they're eating themselves. Yeah. And I find that to be extremely important and illuminating. Always, every day, every day beautiful.
Toréa Rodriguez 39:52
Hey, thanks for joining us for this episode of the Wildly Optimized Wellness podcast. If you’re ready to dig deeper into your health, stop playing the Whack-a-Symptom game, start testing to get better guidance, you can find more about Toréa at torearodriguez.com and you can find Evie at holisticallyrestored.com. Want a peek into what it’s like to work with us? Come join us at our Optimized Wellness Community. You can find the invitation link in the show notes below. And if you have a question for the show, you can submit your question under the podcast section of torearodriguez.com. Finally, if you found something helpful in this episode, don’t forget to leave a review, hit that follow button or share it with a friend. They’re gonna love that you thought of them. Until next time, see you outside!
